...if there is a problem, that is.
Bill Simmons, who I hate but can't not read, believes strongly that point guard play is significant to every team's success. He talks about how we can't pass judgment on NY Knicks until they add a decent pg to Carmelo and A'ma'r'e. (I personally think Carmelo will never again be a champion...)
Mr. Simmons also believes that we're in a golden age of point guards. See his quote:
9. Has there ever been a better year for point guards?
The short answer: No. It's like the quarterback boom in football — and if you want to extend the analogy, some of the NBA's rule changes last decade (dumping hand checks, speeding up the game) helped point guards much like the NFL's rule changes (changing the pass interference rules, protecting quarterbacks) helped passing. But you still need the talent, and fortunately, we're blessed with Derrick Rose, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook, Stephen Curry (although his paper-mache ankles are starting to worry me), Tony Parker (another killer season for him), Kyle Lowry (morphing into a poor man's Fat Lever), Steve Nash, Ty Lawson (one of the fastest NBA players ever), Rubio, Irving, John Wall (coming on), Jrue Holiday (already came on) and Brandon Jennings (finally made a leap this year) … suddenly you're in good hands with half the league's point guards running your team. And we didn't even mention capable veterans like Mike Conley, the Semi-Rejuvenated Jose Calderon, Ray Felton and Andre Miller; The Artist Formerly Known as Jason Kidd; Baron (if he has anything left in the tank); works in progress like Brandon Knight (I'm a fan), T.B.H. Evans,8 Roddy Beaubois (a possible late bloomer???) and Kemba Walker; or even Jimmer Fredette's abundant garbage time skills.9
Look, it's not rocket science: Any basketball game is going to be more entertaining with competent-or-better point guards running the show. (Cut to Knicks and Lakers fans nodding.) Without the right point guard, you won't get fast break points or easy baskets (cut to Knicks and Lakers fans nodding), you won't have good ball movement (cut to Knicks and Lakers fans nodding), it's harder to get your post guys the ball in the right spots (cut to Knicks and Lakers fans nodding), and you might have to rely on one perimeter player shooting 25 to 30 times a game while everyone else stands around (cut to Knicks and Lakers fans nodding vigorously while fighting off tears). More point guards = more fun.10
uhhhhhh, sooo uhhhhhh, which team is conspicuously absent from his list....
Is solid PG the missing link for the Jazz, the difference between barely making/barely missing the playoffs and being a real threat in the playoffs? How much better is the rest of our team with a better PG?
Personally, I'm ready for Earl to start, but I have also noticed (especially when I was at the ESA monday night) that he is not just a pass-first PG, but on a break, he's a pass-only guard. He doesn't threaten to go all the way to the hoop the way Devin-at-his-best plays. Earl's had his moments in the lane, but mostly he stays out because he isn't super effective there ----- in my unscientific opinion.
Where are we with respect to our PG roster? Stand pat? Cross our fingers for the future? Trade assets now? Trade any asset now?
All comments are the opinion of the commenter and not necessarily that of SLC Dunk or SB Nation.
0 recs | 23 comments
Good question
Where I think we are is we have Harris that doesn’t understand the system or his own limitations every game. If he did every game we wouldn’t have this conversation. We have Watson. I love the way Watson plays. I want him to be on the court with our young guys. I think he leads the young guys and doesn’t work as well with the starters on a constant basis. It might also be that he goes all out in a reserve roll and tries to reserve a little in a starting roll. I would actually like to see Tinsley get a shot at starting. He appears smart enough and seems to understand whats going on. He would have to willing to pass and run which may be what keeps him as #3. I also think KOC’s office is open to trade offers for Devin but he is smart and isn’t going to give him away for nothing. I also don’t think he’ll give away one of our promising youngs with Devin to bring in a pg that won’t stay. Devin’s a little overpaid but I think he is the best option at pg we have and tht is available. We as fans should really show him some love some how and see if it will help his confidence.
neds - February 1, 2012
I want a pg who is competent and won't lose games for you.
As in, won’t miss FTs in an overtime game, or airball clutch shots. I don’t think the pg has to be there to win games, but is instead there to put his teammates in a position to win games. I honestly believe that elite pg play doesn’t win championships. And now that the Jazz do not have an elite pg, I can come clean with that belief.
Look at a list of previous NBA champs. You have to go back at least 20 years to find a team what won with a pg as their best player. An argument could be made for Billups as the best player of that Pistons team. But I think that win was truly a team win, that starting five was a unit, no individual stood out for me.
Obviously, from my first sentence, I don’t think Harris is the future. I love Watson as our backup moving forward, I hope he ends his career as a Jazz player. I am ok with the idea of trying to find a pg in the draft, remember I don’t think it has to be an elite player, so middle of the first round should be plenty fine to find a decent pg. But I am also ok with trying to find a pg either through free agency or a trade, of course as long as we didn’t break the bank to do it, in either case.
If you look at what where our young talent lies, it is clear we don’t have a pg of the future on the roster. But I think is totally ok. <insert catty comment about how KOC says we aren’t rebuilding anyway>. Who knows if we have a future all-nba type player on the roster right now. But that is what we should be focusing on, either acquiring that player if we don’t have him, or developing him if we do, whatever position he might play.
hamfist - February 1, 2012
DEFENSE
Could one of the statistical gurus on here shed some light on the defense of from our PG position, similar to that Millsap vs. PF post? It seams to me that we are being beaten badly on both sides of the floor at that position. What if we could get a PG that could just play a little D?
MiPerroMoby - February 2, 2012
I was thinking this too.
Harris is hot and cold, on or off, it seems to me.
MTN - February 2, 2012
Look, we all know that Harris is struggling right now. As much as I would like to find an elite PG, i’m not willing to give up what it would take to get one. While Harris isn’t playing nearly as well as he has in the past, he is certainly playing better right now than he was at the beginning of the year. The way I see it, we aren’t going deep into the playoffs this year (if we even make it) so it doesn’t really make sense to try to trade for another PG unless we get a smoking deal. Lets just take a look at some of the starting PGs that are possibly available.
Jameer Nelson. Magic are definitely going to blow it up this season with Dwight leaving. Nelson is not an upgrade.
Jose Calderon. Might be a better pass first PG, but is certainly slower defensively. We would get killed if our two PG options were Calderon and Watson.
DJ Augustine. Decent all around PG, but pretty much has the same game as Harris. Might be a little better due to being a few years younger.
Raymond Felton. Do I really need to do a comparison? Not a bad PG, but not much of an upgrade if at all.
Rajon Rondo. He might have been available, but recent good play might have the Celtics leaning towards keeping the team together. Even if he was available, we’d have to give up a lot to get him.
And now for back up PGs that are probably available and could potentially start for a team.
Mo Williams. Could potentially be an upgrade due to his shooting, but isn’t much better than Harris in other aspects.
Andre Miller. Don’t think the Denver wants to trade him. Would probably be an upgrade, and a great veteran leader. But you dont give up assets for a veteran PG when he wont be in the league much longer.
Ramon Sessions. Not a bad PG, but I dont see him as much of an upgrade. Plus, I think a number of teams are after him, so it would take too much to get him.
These are all the guys I can think of that might be available and that someone might actually be interested in. Overall there are guys I wouldn’t mind seeing on our team (Miller, Williams) but I just dont think it’s worth giving up assets for a PG that isn’t a long term solution and isn’t going to put us over the top. The best option will be to play the season out and look to the draft.
TurboJazz224 - February 2, 2012
I think Simmons is up in the night.
As Hamfirst said, great PG play isn’t needed to win a championship.
Just look at the Champions:
Kidd won a title in a year which he shot a career low from the field, averaged a career low in points and had lowest average in assists since his rookie season.
Derek Fisher has 5 championship rings and has never shot higher than 41% in a season he has won a ring.
Rondo was considered the weakest link on the 2008 Champs.
Tony Parker was the Finals MVP in ’07, but as Jazz fans remember, Mr. Duncan was the heart of that team, as was the case in ’03 and ’05 for Parker and the Spurs. Parker also played more like a 2 in the ’07 series anyway, 24.5 PPG, 3.25 APG, with an Assist to turnover ratio of 1.08. (Just to put that into perspective Westbrook averaged 6.4 apg and A/T ratio of 1.38 in last years playoffs.)
Jason Williams was the starting PG on the ’06 champs. Enough said.
Billups played well in ’04 and was the finals MVP, but when a guy averages 16 points and 6 assists on 38% shooting and a PER of 18, I think it is safe to say that the win was a team championship.
Steve Kerr has 5 rings and a career average of 1.8 assist per game.
The others in the 90s PG champions were, Avery Johnson, BJ Armstrong /John Paxson, Kenny Smith/young Sam Cassell. Heck the Bulls second 3-peat, they didn’t even start a PG. You have to go all the way back to The Bad Boys Pistons teams to find a team that won the title relying on their PG. So it hasn’t happened in Favors lifetime.
I think the other funny thing about Simmons list is that he fails to mention that the Heat are the favorites to win the title and their PG didn’t make his list.
I would be happy if the Jazz could get Eric Bledsoe type guys, but I don’t think a PG is important enough to give up what we would have to give up to get one.
BobbyD31 - February 2, 2012
I dont think getting a pg is essential to winning a championship
But for a young team like this one a facilitator would help put these guys in the right position on the court to score. Id be fine with a Eric Bledsoe type of pg if Hayward can be that facilitator.
EcERyda69 - February 2, 2012
That is part of the reason I want Hayward getting more minutes with the young guys.
I think he can be a playmaker and help facilitate the offense when it goes stagnant, which with the second unit is quite often, even with Earl out there. I think for the most part we are all in agreement that we know we don’t need a young stud pg, just someone that knows x’s and o’s well enough to get his teammates in the right spots.
hamfist - February 2, 2012
I could definitely see CJ w/ the starters and Hayward with the backups working out ok.
Especially if Hayward plays the 3 with Burks and Watson. Not sure who should start at the 3 though. Howard has been pretty bad lately.
JazzHype - February 2, 2012
I agree with this
I think we Jazz fans have been so spoiled with our PGs—think of it, before Harris we had D Will, Stockton and Green. Only a a couple or few bad years of stop gaps and Keith M.
What we’ve done being spoiled like this, is build this idea that we have to have a dominate PG. I would LOVE to upgrade our PG, but I don’t think it’s an absolute necessity if we have the right pieces in other places.
More than one way to skin a cat.
Stockton2Malone - February 2, 2012
Yep, I absolutely agree with this. Jazz fans are comparing against all time greats for the most part.
Hard to follow that act, but I’ve been pretty content with Harris and Watson. I’d prefer someone a little cheaper than Harris, but I can’t complain… the PG position has been good enough. To me, it’s the wings that need to up the 3pt %.
I’ve never really felt that building around a max contract PG was necessary to win a championship. It can help elevate a team’s level (see Minnesota), but ultimately, the best PGs seem to find the balance between scoring and running the team.
I much prefer the flexibility the Jazz have without D Will and would prefer to try to bring in a better SF and hope our glut of SGs pans out somehow.
JazzHype - February 2, 2012
I'd also prefer to upgrade our SF over our PG right now
An upgrade at SF would be key, especially looking at the makeup of what our youngsters will be. We don’t have to have a superstar at the 3 -(though who would say no?) – just an improvement.
For instance, look at Harrison Barnes and Michael Kidd-Gilcrist. Hollinger said Barnes will likely be a better version of Deng or Granger. MKG is often compared to Gerald Wallace. Either one would be a great fit. Of course, it’s highly unlikely to get either, as both are projected to be top 5 picks or there abouts. But these are the types of players we need. We don’t need a superstar, we just need a solid guy.
Eventually, I’d like to think Burks, Hayward, Miles and future 3 can offer a range of different skillsets, abilities and offer decent depth on the wing.
Stockton2Malone - February 3, 2012
At least 2 of them need to develop a consistent 3pt shot for that to work.
JazzHype - February 3, 2012
True.
We’ve got to get a consistent 3 point threat. It’s been a glaring weakness.
Stockton2Malone - February 3, 2012
Regarding the Heat
Both Wade and Lebron would have been called point guards if they had played in a different era. You probably don’t need a Hall of Famer to win a title, but there are so many good PGs in the league today that you’re probably in trouble if you don’t have one that’s at least above average, especially on the defensive end.
Caderade - February 3, 2012
Yeah um, I'm going to go ahead and disagree with that.
Nobody ever called Jordan, Pippen, and Larry Bird point guards back in their day, yet Stockton, Kevin Johnson, Tiny Archibald, and Cousy were all PGs when they played and would all be still considered PGs now. If you are saying that LeBron and Wade can make PG type plays so they don’t need a PG, then you are proving that elite PGs aren’t neede to win.
Above average PGs. Look at last years finals and find me an above average PG. Kidd was about as average as you could get and Bibby and Mario where very much underaverage. Fisher has 5 rings since 2000 and was an above average PG in exactly 0 of those seasons.
As for defensive PGs, remember last year when neither point guard in the finals could throw the ball in the ocean. Jason Kidd shot 38% and Mike Bibby, well I could have defended Mike Bibby in that series. So is a defensive PG really that important when the PGs in the big games last year are that bad on offense you don’t need to put a stopper on them.
Also last year Mike Bibby couldn’t guard my mom, but Miami just put LeBron on Rose and he kept him under control. So I don’t think a defensive PG is that critical as much as just a good defensive team.
BobbyD31 - February 3, 2012
Lebron is just as much of a PG as Magic was
The Mavs wouldn’t have even made the Finals if it wasn’t for Jason Kidd’s defense on Westbrook, and frequently on Kobe and Durant too. He’s definitely lost a step, but he’s still a Hall of Famer, and at least an above average PG at this point in his career. A big part of the reason the Heat lost is because they didn’t have anyone who could stop JJ Barea and Jason Terry. How many more playoff runs do you think that Lakers could make with Fisher getting lit up every night by Chris Paul or Russell Westbrook? How can you say that a good defensive PG isn’t important after watching the Jazz give up 29 and 34 the past two nights to Curry and Paul? I’m not saying an All-Star point guard is the most important ingredient to having a successful team, but it definitely helps, especially on a team like the Jazz that doesn’t really have anyone who can consistently create his own shot.
Caderade - February 3, 2012
Not to mention the 19 and 33 that Mo Williams and Monta Ellis (essentially two more PGs)
also chipped in. That’s 57 points per game over that last two that we’ve given up to PGs! You can’t win ball games like that.
Caderade - February 3, 2012
A lot of your points are decent
But LeBron is NOT as much a PG as Magic. Not even close. Just because LeBron gives out 7 assists per game doesn’t mean he’s playing the same role Magic had in the Lakers offense.
I encourage you to go back and watch some of those early 80’s Lakers games, and you’ll see a huge difference.
Yucca Man - February 4, 2012
Yucca Speaks the truth.
BobbyD31 - February 6, 2012
Difference #1
Magic never stood outside the 3 point line, waved everybody off, let the clock dwindle, and then force an awkward one-on-one move or an ill-timed 3. The fact that LeBron may be one of the all-time greatest shooters of awkward one-on-one moves and ill-timed 3s ever is beside the point. The point is that Magic made stuff happen for the whole team. He was a true faciliator, an excellent decision-maker, and a do-whatever-it-takes to win competitor. LeBron isn’t even in the same league. Just because he’s tall and can dribble and pass over people does not make him a point guard.
The closest we’ve seen to a really tall true point guard a la Magic is Jalen Rose, and he wasn’t that close.
MTN - February 7, 2012
LeBron is not Magic.
Kidd is a good wing defender, but he does struggle defending quick PGs. He was also perfectly average last year. JJ Barea was also very average. He gave the Lakers problems but that had as much to do with the shooters that Dallas had as it did with JJ. Look at their numbers, Kidd was number 33 in PER for PGs and JJ was number 31. Both of their PERs were just under 15 ( 15 is supposed to be the average NBA player.) so basically they were both very average. Terry is a 2, he played less than 1% of Dallas’ PG minutes last year. So he shouldn’t really be included, but just for fun, he was just over 15 in PER so he would have ranked right behind DJ Augustin had his numbers been in the PG area, which would have been average.
The Lakers could make many more playoff runs if Fisher wasn’t 49 years old. Fisher from even 5 years ago would be good enough, you don’t need a star. Even current Fisher would be OK if they still had Lamar or the rest of the Lakers weren’t old and slow.
I want good team D more than a great defensive player at any one position. With hand check rules, Isolations, and ball screens of today’s NBA a balanced team defense is more important than a good PG defender.
BobbyD31 - February 6, 2012
The wisdom in your last paragraph is vast.
hamfist - February 6, 2012
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